How To Use Jobs To Be Done to Read Your Customers' Minds

Why traditional customer personas don’t work

Claire Suellentrop: So you and I would probably both roll our eyes at the term growth hacker, as I’m sure many of the folks listening would. And I tend to be a rambling person. So I want to give this some thought before I just make, you know, just run my mouth. But I have seen, and I’m sure you have, too, I’ve seen two approaches to marketing. There’s the approach that is only numbers focused, where it’s okay, we have to hit this level. Like, we have to have. We have to hit this number of signups. We have to increase conversion rates by this. We have to get, you know, this many people in, like, in the product and paying for it by this time next quarter. And those are important from a business perspective. Otherwise, like, you know, your company’s going to go out of business. These aren’t charities that. We’re not doing this because we’re not doing this as volunteers. We’re doing this because there’s. There’s a. There’s monetary growth at stake. But at the same time, when I’ll use the word you just used, which is cocoon, when you as a marketer get so wrapped up in the cocoon of the numbers that you’re trying to hit, you kind of forget that the people that you’re selling to are just that they’re people that got up this morning and, you know, were out with, you know, maybe they were. They were up late taking care of their kid last night and they were exhausted, or they were out late with friends last night and they’re exhausted, and now they’re at work and they’re on their. Their fifth cup of coffee, and they have their own problems they’re dealing with, and they, you know, are looking forward to leaving work because they want to go see this new movie or go, you know, see their kid’s baseball game. Like, if you. If you as a marketer ignore or get so focused on the numbers that you forget that your product is just a little part of someone’s day, then you can fall into that trap of being very growth hacky, where it’s all about what, you know, what are the, like, what ways can we kind of trick people into saying yes to our marketing? I was actually working with a client yesterday who’s very like, they’re, they’re. I tend to work with SaaS, companies who are a bit more mature, but this one is on the younger side. And so for them, just getting the first round of signups right now is what matters. And the head of the company in house was like, so if we have people sign up for this newsletter, should we also then say, hey, you can jump the line to get our product earlier if you tweet this thing? And we were having a discussion about what are the ethics and what does it feel like for a user to be asked to jump through all these hoops? And ultimately I was like, hey, put yourself in that person’s shoes. How annoying would it be if you had signed up to get access to something and then you were told, well, before you can have access, you have to go do all these other things for us. Like, picture that in your day. And he was like, you know, from. And he comes from a UX background. He was like, from a user experience standpoint, that actually feels pretty shitty. And it’s just I haven’t met anyone who is inherently a bad person who focuses too much on more scammy feeling tactics or those tactics that people hate so much as I’ve met people who kind of forget that you have to put yourself in that end user’s shoes. To me, that’s where it stems from. It just stems from too much internal focus and not enough of that connection to who your customers are and what their lives look like. Which honestly brings us back to the beginning of the episode.

Louis: Exactly. Yeah. All of what you said is true, and I agree with it. It’s difficult sometimes to remember that people are people and that they are not just numbers.

Claire Suellentrop: Especially when you’re in, when you can’t see them. Right. Like when you are in your office, you can’t. Anyway, go ahead. No, no, no.

Louis: But that’s true. Especially as a digital marketer where we look at Google Analytics all day, it is difficult to, to get empathy to understand that those numbers are actually people. And as you mentioned, there are usually two approaches, like the number driven approach and then the empathy driven kind of approach. And I think both are part of the same thing. It’s just a matter of making sure that you use numbers in the right way and empathy in another way. So let’s drill into the problem we’ve identified at the start of this episode, which is as a marketer, I struggle to understand customers. Not that I don’t care about people, but the fact that it’s just difficult to get into the. Almost to read their minds. It’s very difficult to read their minds. And therefore I’ve been told a few times and I’ve read on the HubSpot blog and I’ve listened to a lot of people saying the same thing. I need to create Personas. I think both you and I agree that it’s not necessarily the best way to go about it. And the approach that you would recommend instead of it, or at least as a complement of the personal economic driven approach, is called.

Claire Suellentrop: It’s called jobs to be done. Right.

Louis: Right. So what’s the kind of the overall pitch? I would say why should people try to use this method instead of the traditional Persona driven marketing?

Introduction to jobs-to-be-done methodology

Claire Suellentrop: So I’ll answer that actually with an example. And I. So back in June, I spoke at Unbounce’s Call to Action conference about this exact topic. And maybe I can send you that link and we can add it to like show notes so people can watch the presentation. But so let’s, let’s, you know, think about a Persona for a second. A Persona is someone’s. They’re a fake name. Right? So it’s like, you know, marketing Melanie or H.R. sally or whatever.

Louis: There’s always a Sally. Always.

Claire Suellentrop: There’s always a Sally. Yeah. So let’s say, let’s say Sally and like HR Sally, she has a Honda and she has two kids and she lives in the suburbs and she’s middle age and she loves, like, I don’t know, what does she do in her free time? She loves tennis, so we have all these. Oh, and she loves dogs there. Okay, so I made a Persona. She works in hr. But those are. And now we know all of those other things about the rest of her life. That’s cool. That seems like a good. That seems like we’ve kind of brought to life who this person is outside of her job title. But having all that information can, like let’s, can we answer. Do we have any idea why she bought, why she bought a certain brand of purse or why she bought a certain brand of wine? Like, do we have any idea based on those characteristics, the fact that she drives a Honda and that she plays tennis, why she made those decisions to purchase something? The answer is not really right. We’ve got surface information on her, but none of that surface information tells us anything about why Sally chooses to take out her credit card and make a purchase. And that as marketers, if we’re relying on those types of Personas, then we have no idea what’s motivating people to buy our stuff. And so jobs to be done is a theory that helps correct that. So it’s a theory and it’s a way of creating profiles or Personas or whatever you want to call it about your customers that are focused much more on that motivation as opposed to just random details about their lives. So one that I used in this talk that I just gave was a story of my friend Alan. Okay? My friend Alan recently bought a drill for his house. Like the kind that you use to hang pictures on the wall and things like that. What’s interesting is that Alan, he and I were talking about this and he didn’t buy the drill for any of those reasons. He didn’t buy the drill because of his job title. He didn’t buy the drill because of the kind of car he drives. He didn’t buy it because of the city he lives in or the state he lives in. He actually bought the drill because he and his wife had just moved into a new home and he had previously been completing all these house projects using his father in law’s drill. But every time he needed to borrow his father in law’s drill, he had to go through this pain in the ass situation. He had to call his father in law, see if he was home. If he wasn’t home, then he had to call him back later, he had to drive to go get the drill, he had to come back, use the drill, and then he had to do it all over again. Right? Every time he wanted to use the drill, it’s kind of like, it’s kind of like, I don’t know what led you to sign up for Calendly, but the pain you were feeling previously was that you had to send five emails every time you wanted to get a meeting scheduled or a podcast interview scheduled. Right? So jobs to be done is about figuring out what that pain is that makes someone go, okay, like, screw this, I have to go find something better. So it’s that. It was that, it’s that, that pain that motivated Alan to go buy a drill for himself. And that struggle, that’s the job and it’s done, so to speak, when hopefully your product but anything really when that job or struggle is solved and the person can, like, go on with their lives in a better way. So calendly solved your struggle of having to waste time sending emails and now you are free to go do other things. Anyway, I want to. Actually, I do want to send you the slides to this presentation because it may make this easier to kind of understand. Because as I ramble on about it, I’m like, I don’t know if I’m really making this clear, but that’s what Jobs to be Done is all about. And it’s so much more useful to us as marketers because then when we’re creating an ad campaign, for example, if we want to speak to the Alans of the world, then we can target people who are very likely going to be feeling those same struggles and have that same job. So we can target people who maybe recently moved to a new place. This comes down to all kinds of technicalities like can you track their previous purchases? And things like that. But if you sell drills and you have a mailing list full of people and you can see what they have and haven’t purchased, then you can actually look and see, okay, who’s moved to a new place recently but hasn’t bought a drill in five years. Essentially, you can start to figure out, where are the people that are going to have that same struggle and how do we go find them and put our product in their life at the time that they need it instead of just blasting them with ads that are not relevant or using copy that doesn’t speak to them. And really, all along down the funnel,

Louis: the best indicator of knowing whether or not somebody is going to buy something is by looking at behaviors of people looking like him. It’s incredibly difficult. And also it could be very tricky to get by just asking questions to understand what people are planning to do. People are very bad at telling you what they’re planning to do in the future.

Claire Suellentrop: Terrible, terrible.

Louis: Well, they’re very good at telling you what they’ve done in the past and why they’ve done it right, even though you might need to drill into the exact why, but it’s a little bit easier to get into the past behavior. So that’s a very good introduction. And yeah, we will add your slides to the show notes. Of course, now for listeners, they understand, I think now the difference, the fact that you can use job to be done as a much more powerful way to understand why people are buying and why they are not and how you can make sure that they do. Now let’s try to get into a step by step, not into a very extremely in depth step by step, but perhaps as an introduction to it. Could we go through A step by step of a company that has literally never done this exercise before, probably in tech as a SaaS business. And how would you advise them to go about it? So step one, what do you do?

Step 1: Identify your power customers

Claire Suellentrop: Right, so a great example of this is actually I worked with the video hosting company Wistia to train one of their internal team members on how to kind of create these jobs to be done, like profiles on their customers and how to do the research to figure out what those pains were or what those jobs were. So what we did, the first thing we did was looked at who are the customers that we want to better understand. Because if you work at any SaaS company, you probably have a very wide array of people that buy your product. Maybe for something like hotjar, they have similar job titles, but their industries are different and their price points are different. And. And so the first thing you want to do is figure out who exactly is it that we’re trying to reach better. Are we going after a new market? Are we going after higher paying clients? And you want to actually find people in your product who have already been really successful and are already paying you, who are a part of that segment. Because what you’re going to look for in the future after we get through this are people like those people. So you want to find the people who are already super happy with what you do, and you actually want to get on the phone with about 10 at least of those people.

Louis: Right. So step one. Sorry to cut you, but step one.

Claire Suellentrop: Yeah, yeah, yeah, go ahead.

Louis: Step one. Try to agree on the typical kind of power users that you have, people who are happy that they’re using your product for a while and make a kind of a detailed profile of those people. Right, so that’s step one.

Claire Suellentrop: Exactly.

Louis: That’s step two.

Step 2: Reach out and schedule interviews

Claire Suellentrop: So then step two is actually reaching out to those people and saying, hey, we’re looking to better understand how people like you use our product and why. And we would love to connect with you for 20 minutes. And this is a tricky part because of two reasons. You got to reach out to a lot of people, because it’s simple math that not everyone is going to be interested, not everyone’s going to have time. And two, marketers, and not just marketers, but really many, many people are terrified of getting on the phone and interviewing someone. You and I are at an advantage. You run a podcast. I come from a journalism background and a radio background, and so interviewing is not as scary. But even when I started doing this, it was so scary to get on the phone with a customer and ask them these questions about their life and how they use our product. So step two is actual outreach. And since you’ll have access to those slides, on the last slide there’s a link where you can just download the email template that I use when I’m inviting customers to get on the phone. So for those who are listening like that, you can just use the one that I use instead of having to create a new one. So that’s step two. And you want to keep reaching out to customers until you’ve gotten at least 10 to 15 people on the phone. Because if you talk to 10 or 15 people in one segment, you’ll find about 80% of the information you need to start finding patterns in the pains and what motivated them to sign up for things. So that’s your number there.

Louis: I want to make a note here. There might be time in your organization where you feel like you don’t have enough data, that there is never enough data, that you need to talk to more people, that you need to send more surveys, or that you need to make more things before making a decision and start doing stuff. So be careful of that. Exactly. As you said, if you have 80% of the data it’s going to take

Claire Suellentrop: you, then just run with it.

Louis: Yeah, it’s going to take you an infinite amount of time to get to the 20% because you’re never going to get the full picture. You’re always going to have to say, well, I trust the data we have now to do the job as well as possible and let’s learn from what we’re doing instead of just overanalyzing as well. That’s just what we need to say.

Claire Suellentrop: Exactly. And I’m glad that you did mention that and the number. You know, this is a time intensive process. Getting on the phone with people takes time and analyzing those conversations later takes time. So it may be something that you and another team member do together. It may be something that you bring someone in to do for you, which is why I have work, because people internally are busy. So that’s step two, right, Is sending out those invitations. And step three is actually getting on the phone with customers and having a 20 to 30 minute call. Now this gets tricky because it’s easy to ask the wrong types of questions. It’s really easy to ask people for their opinion and opinion. As you mentioned earlier, Louis, we as humans are not very good at predicting what we’ll do and we’re not very good at understanding what really motivated us to buy something. So, like you could ask, you could ask Alan, my friend, why did you buy this drill? And he might not really think to say, well, it’s because borrowing my father in law’s drill was a huge pain. He may just say something simple that’s on the box, like, well, I liked that it had this many speeds. Or I like that it was this. I like that it was this design. But it’s really unlikely that he’ll be able to just spontaneously give you his motivation. So you need to ask the right questions. And thankfully in the slides in that link, you can just have my questions. It’s fine.

Step 3: Ask the right interview questions

Louis: So for people who are not going to bother looking at the slides, what are the key questions would you recommend?

Claire Suellentrop: So I’ll give a small handful. So the ones that you want to avoid are anything like, why, so why did you choose to make this purchase? If I was asking Alan, for example, why did he choose to buy this drill, he could very easily give me some incorrect information. So you want to avoid why? And you want to avoid questions about the future, like, hey, we’re thinking of creating this new feature, would you use it? Because like you said, people are just. Humans are just really bad at being able to predict their own behaviors. So avoid those and look for. Instead ask questions about the what. So my favorite one that I start, I don’t start interviews with this, but I ask every single. I ask this on every interview is before. And you work for. Well, let’s see what’s a good. We can use Wistia because I was working with them. We can say, we could get on the phone and say, okay, so tell me about your life before Wistia. What did it look like? What was happening? And then you have this person talking about events in their life and things that were going on, not just what they think they made a purchase for. And you can guide the conversation from there. So you can start with what was happening in your life before our product and what was that like? What was good about it? What was bad about it? What event? What happened? What finally took place that made you think, you know what, we need to go find something else? You know, was it an internal conversation with a team member? Was it something that, you know, were you experiencing frustration with the last way you were doing things? You’re almost looking to really like film a documentary of what this person was going through leading up to purchasing your product? So what are the ones that I’ve stated? Let’s recap those what was happening in your life before our product? What was that like? What happened that finally made you say, we need to find something else? And then after that, what did you do? Like how did you start looking for other things? Were you googling for them? Were you asking friends? Did you just pick something you had already heard of previously? What led you to us? And notice that pretty much everything I’m saying here starts with what? So then once you found out about us, what made you confident that this was the right solution for you? What did you notice? And this could go on and on and on. But for those who are interested in getting further ones, again, you can have my whole list. It’s a lot easier to read.

Louis: I like to come back to the step two. So there is one thing that marketers are struggling with is to get buy in from their managers or decision makers in this particular process. So as you said, it’s okay. You should definitely get somebody else on board with you. If you convince somebody else to get into this crusade with you, it’s going to be much easier. Right. Do you have any other tip to convince people to use this method? I would personally say you might disagree to start very small, to start with one other person and just do it not on your own, but you don’t have to make a big deal out of it. It’s your job at the end of the day as a marketer and then show the findings and say this is the type of stuff we can get if we get even deeper.

Getting organizational buy-in for customer research

Claire Suellentrop: So there are a couple of ways that this can happen. One of them is very similar to what you mentioned, which is just you and a colleague do this on your own time, right? So don’t make a big deal out of it. Don’t say, okay, we’re going to take this huge, this huge project on and it’s going to disrupt everyone’s work. Just get on the phone with even fewer people than we’ve discussed here, even 2 to 3 to 5, and go through these questions with them, record those calls, get them transcribed and once you’ve done that, then share with your team. Hey, here’s what we’ve learned about our customers that we did not know internally. Do you know the platform meetup? They it’s a platform where you can like find events that are happening in your city. So there’s, I don’t believe they were on the marketing team. I believe they were on the product team. But someone within meetup was really interested in these interviews for product development as opposed to marketing. And this person just conducted a few jobs to be done interviews by himself and then he held a short presentation over a lunch, a lunch hour with, with his team. And he called it why People Fire Meetup. And in that presentation, he actually showed pictures of the people he interviewed and he, he used their quotes from the calls to say, these are the reasons people are leaving our product. What can we as a team do to fix it? And so he got this very emotional buy in without, without first saying to everyone, hey, we’re going to adopt a new process. And from there it grew because then people were invested, they understood the value without him having to convince them. He just showed them like, this is what I have learned in this very small project. So I totally agree with you there. That’s a really, really good way to get started without getting a hard no from your boss.

Louis: There are so many topics we can drill into and I don’t want to fall into a kind of a trap where we can get a rabbit hole. That’s it. I was searching for, for this term, but you said a very important thing here. It’s all about the emotion and the stories. So it’s much easier. And I’ve said that in the podcast many times, but it’s worth repeating. It’s much easier to convince people using stories and individual stories and emotions rather than spreadsheets.

Claire Suellentrop: Oh, my God. Yes.

Louis: So like, exactly as you said, once you have the findings, you do try to make them as personal as possible. Do tell a story. And it’s okay if you tell just one customer story, but if it’s valuable, people will remember that it will strike with them. Yeah, exactly. Okay, so step one, you kind of make a customer profile of those power users, people who love your stuff. Step two, you contact them. Step three, you start talking to them and use some of the questions you use. You avoid using why. You start with what? Another good question I would ask is, what almost stopped you from buying from us? So not only do you identify the key benefits of the key reasons why people bought from you, but you also identify the key objections that almost stop, definitely. So that you can address them. Right. And then step four, you basically started to talk about it, right?

Step 4: Transcribe and analyze the interviews

Claire Suellentrop: You transcribed the conversations, always record and always transcribe. Because if you’re just trying to take notes, you will miss those quotes you will miss. If you’re on a call with a customer, you shouldn’t have to worry about taking notes. So, yes, transcribe. And this is very, very tactical and a small detail. But there’s a service called Rev.com, r E V. They create transcripts at like I think a dollar a minute and it’s so worth it. They’re very accurate and they come back within like 24 hours.

Louis: Yeah, I agree. This is a good one. There’s also a SpeechPad.com that does the same.

Claire Suellentrop: Right? Yeah.

Louis: But yeah, don’t be afraid to use those services because it will save you a lot of time and you can focus on the actual important thing. So you do get the transcript and then you make sense out of it. And then I suppose what you mentioned might be another step which is try to make a story out of it, try to organize a presentation. But I like what you said with the example of meetup. Don’t make it like try to tease your managers in a sense, try to extract some sort of a good angle that you can use, such as why do people stop using our product? Or something like this.

Claire Suellentrop: Right, right. And if for some reason you do have this, you’re introducing it to your team and you’re showing them, look what we’re learning from customers and they still, maybe you have a manager who really who loves spreadsheets or needs some kind of data to prove, yes, it’s worth you spending more time on this Intercom, their head of marketing, his name is Matt, Matt Hodges. He gave a great presentation of how Intercom used jobs to be done in their product development and their marketing together. And he has in that presentation a great slide they went. At the time that he came on board, they undertook the process of learning their customers jobs to be done. And then it was about 18 months I think that they revised their marketing strategy and their product. And they, because of, because of that effort and of course they had a lot of people on board but because of that effort they went from like 35,000 unique visitors a month on their website up to it was like five times that. It was like 200 something thousand per month. And what they saw was that the rate of signups was increasing at the same time. So clearly the marketing was sending the right message, it was attracting the right people. And so they were growing the product using this. So if you do have a boss who’s looking for a case study of someone who’s done this before, Matt’s presentation that he gave showing the Intercom case study is really, really helpful.

Real-world examples and case studies

Louis: What strikes me about Intercom example is that what we’re discussing here seems obvious and I know that listeners will say, well duh, it almost seems too obvious. But that’s the beauty of it is that you come back to the root of marketing. You come back to the root of understanding people and by using their own language and by segmenting your product or your service per jobs, it just speaks to people much, much better than just features or a list of benefits even. It seems like it’s something that goes beyond that and that works really well. That actually was the question I wanted to ask after the steps we mentioned examples. So Intercom is a very well known example for having used this technique and this strategy even very successfully. Did you come across any other SaaS companies or even outside of SaaS company who use this particular methodology?

Claire Suellentrop: The place that I can think to find the greatest number of people using this methodology is in a book called. It’s called When Coffee and Kale Compete. And the idea there is that someone, it’s explained in the book, but someone was struggling to really start their day in a way that made them feel energized and ready to go. And they started with coffee and then they eventually switched to a kale smoothie. And you would never look at those as competitors. Right. But ultimately they were both getting the same job done for this person. And so Kale won anyway. That’s beside the point. But When Coffee and Kale Compete is written by a guy named Alan Clement, who is much more well versed on jobs to be done than I am. He’s been doing it much longer. He’s the same Alan who bought the Drill. It’s the same guy. But he’s written a very, very in depth book about this and he cites many, many people, both in the SAS world and not in the SAS world, who’ve used this. This is more like. This is less about big companies and more about small software companies. But are you familiar with Justin Jackson? He’s very much an Internet marketer.

Louis: I interviewed Justin.

Claire Suellentrop: Oh, did you really?

Louis: One of the episodes that’s hilarious was published in August. I think with Justin, it was just.

Claire Suellentrop: Okay, so I was about to say, yeah, I’d done my homework and I had seen a couple of guests, but okay, so Justin, hey.

Louis: At the time we are recording this episode, Justin’s episode hasn’t been published yet,

Claire Suellentrop: which is why that’s hilarious. Right? So Alan in this book actually cites. He talks about how Justin used jobs to be done to create a series of products that help an engineer, for example, someone who’s a product person and wants to get started creating and wants to get good at marketing, but the first struggle they encounter is I don’t even know where to start. And so Justin has a specific product that he has for that and I won’t butcher the name of all his products because he’s got many. Now. There’s the community, there’s tiny marketing wins, there’s a number of. There’s several other ones. But if you read When Coffee and Kale Compete, he and Alan discuss this at length and they go into one product, gets one job done and then once that struggle has been solved, then this new product focused business person faces a new struggle, which is, okay, how do I actually do marketing? And then the next product solves that struggle. And as they get better at what they’re doing over time, Justin’s products actually grow with them and solve struggle after struggle after struggle after struggle. So he creates this long customer journey where the same person is buying from him time and time again. So that’s a really great case study. And really, I’m pretty sure, yeah, yeah. When Coffee and Kale Compete is free, so you can download that. And Alan dives into a number of other companies that have done this and it’s really, really interesting.

Louis: Aside from this book, what are the top three resources you would recommend? Any digital marketer. It could be books, podcasts, blog articles, whatever you want.

Claire Suellentrop: Okay, so let’s see. So we’ve talked about the book, we’ve talked about Matt at Intercom and the presentation that he gives. Those two are really, the presentation is much shorter than the book. And really Intercom’s blog talks quite a bit about jobs to be done as well. I would honestly just search like Intercom plus Jobs to be done and see what they’ve written on it as well as I believe Alan. Yeah. Alan also runs a blog called jtbd.info and he actually invites people who use this methodology to write about it from the marketing perspective, from the product development perspective, from the perspective of growing a business. And that’s really useful because you get a much more holistic view of how you can really use it. And it’s many, many different people’s writing. So you’re learning lessons from all kinds of people as opposed to just one person over and over and over. So jtbd.info would be a good other place for that.

Louis: Amazing. I think that’s a great way to end this episode. Unless you have anything else to add outside of the question I asked you.

Claire Suellentrop: Really, I think we’ve discussed a lot. If we keep talking, I’ll just keep rambling.

Louis: Alright, let’s finish that. Let’s. Let’s end this episode. Claire, thank you so much once again for your time. It was a pleasure to talk to you.

Claire Suellentrop: Likewise. This is wonderful.

Louis: That’s it for another episode of everyone hates marketers.com and this is the moment where I tell you to subscribe to our email list. So before you leave and go to another podcast or listen to another episode. I don’t treat email lists the way people usually treat their email list. I really treat that as a as a one to one conversation. So I’m going to send you very short personal emails every two weeks. I would say we I’ll inform you of guests in advance, I’ll share with you my numbers and how many listens we get and I’ll also ask you for your feedback in terms of the questions we can ask future guests. And perhaps I can also have you on the show someday. So don’t be afraid to subscribe. I’m not going to spam you and you can always unsubscribe for sure if you wish. The second thing we need from you is your harsh and honest feedback. We know that this show is not perfect yet and we always can improve. So you can send us your email@feedBACKYONE hatesmarketers.com Good or bad, please feel free to send me an email and the last thing I’d like from you is that if you did like the episode, please share it to your friends, your colleagues or whoever might like it. And also please review it on itunes or another service that you might use to listen to your podcast. Because if you leave us five star review it means that more people will be likely to listen and we can spread the word quicker. So thank you so much once again and over. And that’s it for another episode of everyone hates marketers.com thank you so much for listening. I’m super, super grateful. I’d love for you to consider subscribing to my daily newsletter Monday to Friday called Stand the Out Daily IC and very short, hopefully interesting, surprising, shocking, entertaining content to help you stand the fuck out. It’s ateveryonehates marketers.com you can subscribe for free and obviously unsubscribe whenever you want. I’m just going to read a couple of emails that I got recently as a reply. Juma said, your content attacks the mind primarily, which is such a good thing because most of us are skilled at what we do, but we don’t have the courage to do it our way. Way Mark, who just subscribed couple days before, said, this is my first issue of your newsletter. Love it. Glad I subscribed. Brianna said, I just realized this morning that My email habit is now to 1. Came through the list 2. Select all unread industry email except yours. 3. Delete and don’t think twice. 4. Quickly scheme yours. Amy said, Also loving the new content that’s coming from you. It feels really lovely. Lovely. Candle said, I like your writing a lot. It really resonate. There’s so much out there. It’s good to touch the authentic. And Chloe said, Where is the I love this email button? Brilliant. I hope you subscribe. You’ll be joining more than 14,000 subscribers at this stage, which is crazy. It’s the size of a small stadium. Anyway, thank you so much. See you on the other side.

Claire Suellentrop: Sam.